I need an explanation. Because I just don't get it. I don't get YOU. You are baffling to me, like trigonometry or the millions of women who want to have sex with Robert Pattinson. I. just. don't. understand.
What are you trying to conserve, exactly? The past? How far back do you want to go?
The fifties, that lovely era of post-War bliss? Well, except for the whole fear of nuclear war and communism thing. And women suffering massive identity crises. And homosexuals hanging out with the mothballs and winter coats. And black people being tortured and killed for wanting to do crazy things like go to school or vote or, you know, look at white people. Help me out, here. Is this what you want?
Maybe we need to go farther back. Not World War Two, probably. What with, you know, WAR and all. And probably not the Depression. Y'all are pissed off already that the president isn't pulling jobs out of thin air, so I'm thinking the Depression wouldn't suit you, either. World War One is out, too, I guess. That puts us...late 1800s.
Well, scratching your hand on a rusty nail could kill you and there's still the whole pesky issue of women and black people not being able to vote, but HEY, at least the black folks weren't slaves anymore, right? Help me out, Michelle Malkin. Is this what you're aiming for?
No? Okay, so, we're gonna skip right over the Civil War and the time leading up to it, because, you know, I'm pretty sure you want to conserve America. Right? I hear that a lot from you. The 1840s were good, I suppose.
Gold. Woohoo! Women STILL couldn't vote, though. And there was the whole slavery thing. And the death by lockjaw thing. But there was GOLD! And plenty of immigrants to build the railroad to get to the gold. I know you aren't really down with immigrants, but as long as they work hard to make you cheap houses and roads and clothes and food, it's cool, right? Help me out.
Maybe you want to go farther back, though. Colonialism ROCKED. Slavery, no voting women, killing Native Americans (thank goodness the illegal immigrants in present times just work their asses off for us instead of routing us out of our homes, giving us diseases, and destroying our culture), death by syphillus, a WAR, religious intolerance espoused by people who came seeking it (hmmm....this sounds familiar)...I mean, what more could you want? Help me out.
Wait, wait. I know. Since you talk so much about faith and religion and preserving a Christian America, maybe you want to go back to Biblical times. New Testament, right? Women couldn't own land, had to marry their husband's brother if the husband died, couldn't wear jewelry, braid their hair, or wear pants, but that's okay, Ann Coulter. Right? I know Jesus was telling folks to love their neighbors and treat prisoners and the sick like him, but...well, there wasn't TV back then, or the internet, so it might take a while for that message to get to you, so you'd be good. After all, I've heard lots of you talk about how you COULD follow Jesus' teachings more closely, how you KNOW you sin all the time by not adhering to his Word. How much easier would it be to not think about what your Saviour would do if it took you months to catch wind of his latest sermon instead of being able to read it in fifteen seconds from your Bible?
Ooh, the Old Testament. You could own virgin slaves if you were part of the conquering army. I know a lot of you think that's what Moses meant when he was pissed that the army wasn't brutal enough to the loser Midianites. Ooh, and if you found out your wife wasn't a virgin, you could have her stoned to death. Capital punishment is AWESOME to y'all, I know.
Hang on. I know. You want to go way back, right? I'm talking Garden of Eden. Pre-serpent. Walking around in an untainted paradise naming animals and hanging out naked with your sweetie.
Whoopsie, though. You don't want your paradise untainted. Because destroying the planet God gave you is A-okay. One group of scientists lied about their data AND the liberal president wants to clean up the environment, so CLEARLY this gives you an excuse to allow mass consumerism, heinous farming and energy practices, and rampant overuse of fossil fuels to continue. (Glenn Beck forbid you ever espouse anything a liberal would.) It must be tough for those of you who like to hunt to think about how the land you need for the hunting is being polluted or eaten up by developers. Or not. It's hard for me to gauge this. Help me out.
But you WON'T help me out, will you? Because, somehow, whatever it is that is so fricking precious to you that you have to cling to it while the world turns without you won't let you. You would prefer, I'm assuming, to sit in your house with your money and your Bible and your guns, while suffering that you could help goes on. You pine so desperately for a time that is past that the present and the future means nothing to you.
So maybe, frankly, you are the ones who need helping out.
*I wanted to write something light today. Something funny about trying to be frugal and green and all the rest. But then I read this article. And my brain exploded when I read the comments. And so you get this. If you ARE a conservative person reading this post, do me a favor. Don't send me a private message on Facebook. Don't email me with a list of ways that I'm wrong. Don't decry this post on your own blog without doing me the courtesy of letting me know you're tearing me apart. Answer me HERE. Help me out. I fricking dare you to.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features_momsatwork/2009/12/immigration-check-for-christmas-toys.html)*
43 comments:
I'm fairly conservative, but I can't possibly understand that attitude. I guess what I'd say is that the vocal minority of asshole conservatives (this includes Glenn Beck) doesn't represent me - or most conservatives.
Why IS the minority allowed to BE so vocal though? Not trying to shout at you, Kiramalove, I just seriously don't understand. Why are those eight or nine assholes the clearest representatives? What do those folks (the assholes) really stand for that is so intoxicating? I'm running around in circles with this and I hope I didn't offend you or any other non-asshole conservative. I'm just...worn out with this kind of stuff.
I'm a newcomer to your blog and was very content to quietly lurk, BUT, today you have pushed me into the LIGHT. I just want you to know...I think I love you!
Please explain to me what it means to be a "conservative" because I need someone to help me out too! Does that mean we are preserving some sort of past value? Does conservative mean fiscally? If it does have something to do values, as Heather so aptly put, what are those values? I am pretty much at a loss.
As a far left liberal, I have many of the same questions.
All I know is that so-called conservatives ran this country into the ground...and now our liberal president is left to pick up the pieces.
Only, apparently he's not doing it fast enough for conservative America.
I guess he's supposed to wave his magick wand and create endless jobs, endless funds, and bail everybody out of their credit card debt.
While that would be nice, it's not realistic.
So, what took them eight years to completely feck up, Obama should be able to fix in 11 months.
Awesome.
Brilliantly written piece, btw.
Sorry Dear, can't help ya on this one because I'm right there with you. If anyone explains it to you in a way that makes any sense, please pass it along. I'm dying to know. LOL
And why ARE the assholes so vocal? Not just conservative ones, but ALL of them? The assholes are always the ones shouting the loudest in any group or philosophy or religion... you'd think if they were the minority the majority would try harder to SHUT THEM UP. *laughs*
Since this brand of conservatism lives mainly in the South, and I'm from Alabama and my daddy was a Wallace delegate at the Miami convention, I think I understand it. These conservatives want to go back to a time when an N-word acted like an N-word and the conservatives' tax dollars weren't feeding black welfare queens breeding. The government did this, so they hate the government, unless it's about a war, which entertains them and also makes them feel better than others. These joe-the- plumber types fail to understand that the megacorporations have made N-words of us all. I think they'd rather do without healthcare than to let the N-words have it too. Some of the conservative pundits will just take notoriety where they can get it. Ann Coulter, well, she's just crazy. Does any of this help?
Hi Heather, I wouldn't call myself a full fledge card carrying conservative, probably more libertarian. But, forgive, I fail to see the Salvation Army as a conservative group. I know they claim to be Christian on their website, but that doesn't necessarily mean conservative. Even Obama claims that title. Unfortunately most who claim to be Christian are false. Jesus said narrow is the way and few be that find it, broad is the way to destruction and many find it. Probably why a majority of NT is written to combat false teaching. To me, the Christmas spirit is about the birth of Christ, and what that means to us, more so than it is about toys, gifts, kids, ect. If they're giving out food, or household items necessary for life, I guess that could be a different argument. It doesn't even say in the Bible to celebrate Christ's birth, but I guess there's nothing wrong with it although it started from a Pagan holiday! I'm not sure I see anything wrong with immigration laws either, don't most countries have them? Personally, I know an illegal immigrant working on my father-in-law's farm, a great guy that I have no problem with. Makes an awesome burrito! But if the law came along and said he had to go, I couldn't really argue either as I'm in subjection to the law. Anyways, that's my 2 cents, just not sure I see the connection from the article to the attack on conservatives, (although they do deserve some attacking! i think most all politicians do!)
Laura: Aw, I think I love you, too. Now go put on some sunscreen, it's bright out here in the light. Snort.
coosawattee: Still waiting on an answer...
Bridgett: I hear you. I'm done making excuses for my president. I want explanations from his detractors.
BFM: Preach it, sister. I think we should have a Muzzle the Assholes movement.
annette: Sadly, I think you're right about some of it. Why won't those pesky minorities stay DOWN?
From my understanding, it's about going back to a time when our all-totally-Christian forefathers who were totally against religious persecution and everything formed this country and wrote the constitution. And maybe in this version of history they left out some of the articles.
This was absolutely BRILLIANT.
I am left of liberal, but have an assessment on the matter.
There are libertarians (I grew up with a ton in northern Idaho)--they want NO GOVERNMENT because they can live off the land and defend THEMSELVES dammit.
There are the religious conservatives who are largely single or at most two issue voters (anti-abortion and anti-gay).
And then there was the marketing machine that rose under the Reagan administration to fool all these folks that they wanted the same thing. (they don't mostly, but there is a large portion of this second type of conservatives who bought it hook line and sinker, and so have begun regularly voting against their own economic self interest and other values because those couple issues TRUMP EVERYTHING.) And the libertarians, because they liked Reagans anti-government (foreign policy notwithstanding) THINK they are Republicans--which THEY ARE NOT. In no way shape or form should they have liked ANYTHING from GWBs infringements on civil liberties... but... you know, voting habits are hard to break.
(and I think it IS the 50s they crave--the misogenist and racist stuff makes the lines of right an wrong nice and easy to see, and the common enemy of commie pigs give a nice 'in-group' feeling at home.)
You do know that you're not celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th? That date was added by the Christian church to combat popular solstice festivals of the time. Just saying.
Jeremy, you're absolutely right that being "Christian" doesn't mean being "conservative." However, one assumes that if an organization touts itself as a Christian organization, at the very least, it should espouse Christian ideals. And those ideals shouldn't, in my non-Christian opinion, come with caveats. Did Christ die for only legal citizens? Did he ask his followers if they had identification?
I don't have a problem with immigration laws. The article in question, however, was not about immigration laws. It was about charities setting a boundary about who deserves good will and the services--no matter what they are--of organizations that fall under the Christian banner.
I suppose reading the responses set up a wave of resentment in me, Jeremy, toward a group of people I see as rank hypocrites. The whole bitter happiness toward i.i.'s receiving inhumane treatment is a theme for many folks I know who identify themselves and both Christian AND conservative.
Also, I honestly want to know what it is that is being conserved. And I'm not getting that from a single conservative.
I do thank you, Jeremy, as always for your thoughtful candor and willingness to discuss things with grace.
Bellesouth: And, you know, actual history. Sigh. Part eight million.
WT: Interesting thoughts on the Libertarian/Reagan issue. Will mull this over...
Hartwell: I know, I know, bro. But let me say that because the Church DID usurp Mithras, the Solstice, and a billion other things, like it or not...the 25th DOES celebrate Christ's birth. And, honestly, that's okay with me. There is nothing in the depictions of Christ's life, death, or resurrection to warrant anything but respect for him as a deity. If anything, the idea that such a humble beginning doesn't have to mean a worthless life is beautiful and worthy of celebration. I'm down with all of the Christmasy stuff. Except for setting limits on who is worthy of charity. That makes me want to vomit.
Hello dahling. I'm probably just overlooking it...but I can't find your e-mail address anywhere.
So here's mine:
bridgetteleigh75@aol.com
Zap me a note, soul-sista. :)
I was born an American.
Ronald Reagan kicked my mentally ill mother out of a federally funded mental hospital and she lived on the streets of the cold Midwest and worked as a prostitute and contracted AIDS. She died of pneumonia. He was a conservative just trying to save the taxpayer some money. You wouldn't want charity to be thrown around recklessly now wouldya?
The Reagan legacy continued unabated under the two Bushs where greed and selfishness took the lead and any remnants of what made America once great disappered in the rhetoric.
There is a fallacy in America that is never challenged - the fallacy that the whole world is dying to live within its borders ONLY. That America is the only country having to deal with immigrants, that the generosity of America is unparalleled. Like I said all of that is a fallacy.
Ten years ago, I happily and proudly renounced my citizenship. The so called Moral Majority in America is neither.
They ought to be ashamed.
This comment actually comes from an old friend who is serving in Afghanistan right now. Thanks, John, for taking the time.
I have never been a fan of the connotations of either conservative or liberal. Conservatives aren’t trying to conserve any more than liberals are trying to liberate (of course depending on how you want to twist and play with the English language I am sure everyone can come up with examples that prove me wrong).
We need look at more specific issues instead of lumping people into a group. I am assuming that today’s anger doesn’t deal with me wanting a smaller, less wasteful government (as a member of the military I have an intimate knowledge of government waste). At the most basic level the people you are angry with don’t agree with a Christian charity giving Christmas toys to illegal immigrants. These people have done something that is very un-Christian like. They seem to forget that Christ was here to help the gentiles, basically the outsiders in Jewish culture. They obviously need to revisit their Sunday school lessons. I have been a regular contributor to the Salvation Army. I want to do more research into this article and find out the “truth”. If I find out that this is true then I will stop sending them my money.
Lumping the rest of us “conservatives” with this group is similar to racism/sexism/etc. Assuming that I would agree with them just because I am conservative is the same as assuming that all black men steal because one black man is in jail for theft. Thankfully American’s are not easily divided into two polar groups. Each of us has varying degrees of conservative and liberal ideas. Unfortunately our congressional leaders can’t seem to understand that simple truth. Please try to see the trees and not the forest.
John
haha- Hart's right! Who is going to correct Aunt Susan when she piously sings "Happy Birthday to You" to Jesus at Christmas this year?
I think that what this ALL boils down to is fear. They (conservatives) are afraid of anyone whose lifestyle or ideas don't fit into their narrow definition of a "good american". ie: someone just like them.
Conservatives seem to want to hang onto the status quo, or revert to some imagined ideal America that never really existed. They want Bedford Falls, and the reality is that Bedford Falls is in a movie, and was never real. They THINK it WAS real, though and they will do anything to preserve this fantasy, up to and including killing thousands of people on the other side of the world, and denying basic rights to their fellow americans.
I'm crying about Lauri's comment and what happened to her Mum. Oh, my dear, I am so sorry.
I don't like conservatives at all. They are ignorant and ill-informed and responsible for the mess we currently find ourselves in economically and environmentally. They only care about money. They have no concept of social welfare or things like animal rights or compassion in farming.
If I had God-like abilities I would put a pox on them all.....
It's ok to celebrate Christmas and all that... Go buy yourself a manger... Still, whenever I see people truly, genuinely celebrating Christmas with love in their heart for an installed deity, it just makes me... sad for them. There they are, blindly asserting their devotion for a lie. It seems wrong to me. Like millions of marionettes being manipulated by invisible strings.
Lauri: I'm so sorry about your mother. That's just horrible. And it highlights the biggest problem I have with conservative government agents. Living by a religious standard is one thing. Clinging to a religion for power and to manipulate others is another. THAT is my big problem. It isn't really the conservative citizenry (although I might not agree with them personally.) It's the governmental agents who tout small government while wanting to control what goes on inside my home, all the while talking about keeping God in schools as they accept funds from money changers. I don't think they worship the same God that those who voted for them do.
John, you're right. I actually AM lumping all conservatives into one wad of horror. It is on purpose, actually. I might not think that it's true, but it strikes me that many, many folks who use the word "conservative" to describe themselves aren't thinking about what it means. I have friends who vote for people who want to take away a woman's reproductive rights who have taken advantage of the rights we have in this country. I have friends who want to deny people health care coverage even as they quote Jesus in their FB pages. Modern Republican lawmaking does NOT jibe with Christian ideals, and the folks like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and that awful Ann Coulter embrace nastiness and grandstanding and meanwhile, the conservative citizenry looks the other way and can't express why it's okay. That's what I want to know. Why is it okay to tout a small government and spend time and money debating gay marriage or flag burning or prayer in school? (I'm not referring to you, I'm referring to the governmental agents.)
Missy, I think you're right about the fear. I don't know how to change someone's mind about that.
Selma: Come on, stop hiding your feelings. Let them goooooo! :)
Hartwell: Yikers. That's treading on some shaky ground, isn't it? Feeling sorry for someone who has an honest spiritual connection to a deity (even if the Church DID manipulate his birth story) seems a waste of pity as well as...well, kinda being mean. Is it worse for people to feel an honest devotion at this time of year or to be sucked into the mindless commercialism it has become?
I think you nailed it with the 'small government but let's legislate bedroom activity' issue and one of my biggest problems with the party too.
I can respect religious conservatives who truly live by a faith, even if it isn't mine, but judgmentalism is as far from Christian as it gets. I have issues with people fighting for the sanctity of life, all the while sentencing people to death--that is hypocrisy. And if the argument is valuing life, then that means safety nets for the LIVING (healthcare, financial help--resources to better out own lives and those of all children)--so a truly Christian view really SHOULDN'T be small government (yes, I get that they think charities should do this, but lets face it, not everyone has access, nor are charitable resources adequate for the job)
I can also understand (though don't share) Libertarian views... government out of everything is at least a consistent viewpoint.
But those two viewpoints NEVER intersect except by the manipulative machinations of the neocons.
I think feeding into all of this is also an undue. excessive patriotism that 'America is the greatest country ever and therefore should NEVER be questioned--until of course, a Democrat is in office. We are part of the world and need to face that fact. Conservatives don't seem to be prepared to do that.
Not Hannah- I only mentioned my mother as a perfect example of how things go horribly wrong when you re-tract government. Sorry it made you cry Selma.
Watery Tart (love the name BTW)- you are spot on. The hypocrisy is what is so infuriating. I actually respect people with strong religious views (I taught at a Catholic seminary for a while- I'm agnostic).BUT- I don't push my life on you so don't push yours on mine.
When there is a story on Oprah about a person going from poverty to riches, Oprah always says "Only in America could something like this happen". The arrogance of that is astounding.
I live in Botswana. In one generation my husband's family went from not a single educated person in their family living in a mud hut -to every one of my husband 6 siblings attending primary school, 4 of them finishing senior secondary and 2 of those getting degrees. All are either employed or owning their own businesses. All own their own houses- some more than one. This is the norm NOT the exception.
I think it should be mandatory that every single American MUST leave north America at least once. Travelling is the best medicine for a closed mind and a closed heart.
I felt sufficiently bad about the comment I left to consider retracting it.
I have conservatives in my family who are good, decent people; so obviously I don't dislike all conservatives, but the extreme ones are sooo extreme it colours all of the others. I dream of a middle ground being found where all the issues that need to be sorted out can be. Isn't it up to all of us irrespective of political/religious ideologies to ensure a good life be had for everyone in society?
Great debate, Heather!
You write so well on this. Pointed and funny. Wish I had the answer, I'd be able to solve 99.99% of the world's problems. Religion and rationalizing it as a reason to hate or be intolerant and divisive-- ancient human passtime. Wish we'd stop it.
Got this from Wyrdd.
I don't get the conservatives either, especially the Christian ones, cuz, yanno, I'm Christian and all.
All I know is I'm sick of being lumped in with the jerk Christians. They need a new name to go with their new religion of hate.
Another conservative folk joins us, my cousin, R. I edited out stuff about conversations we've had in the past on FB.
Heather...I usually love your posts. Although I don't usually agree, I do respect your opinion. I know the love you have for your family, so it isn't logical for me to believe that you would be malicious in your beliefs and take a chance of hurting your loved ones. You must truly believe that the liberal way is the best way. I'm learning. Not converting, but learning.
You need an explanation? I don't know Robert Pattinson...never heard of him, and I loved trig. The feeling is mutual when it comes to not understanding, but from a conservative view toward liberals. I did rather enjoy your history lesson, but am quiet perplexed with your assumption that all of the people of the times and troubles you listed were conservative. How did you jump to that conclusion? Don't you think that the civil disobedience exhibited by Adam and Eve was more akin to liberalism? Whoah!!! Didn't Eve first tempt Adam? A swing at feminism? Whoah!!! Women not voting? Nail scratches equal death? Killing Native Americans? Blacks oppressed? War? Forced marriages? Slavery? Land developers? Why only reference the past? ALL OF IT CONTINUES TODAY!!! What actions are we taking in Darfur and other areas? Why then do you say we conservatives are trying to conserve only the bad things when you liberals allow these things to continue? You also insinuate that Democrats or liberals don't embrace anything evil. I don't understand. It's your blog and you have the right to say anything and everything you want. I will support your right to the end and with every fiber in my body. John and people like him are supporting that right with their blood and their lives. I won't soil their efforts and sacrifices, nor those of the men and women who died protecting our rights. In this area I do have a question, and I do take a swipe at liberals. How many military personell today claim to be liberal? What is the split? How far could liberalism in America go without our warriors? How long would it survive? Would your liberalism survive under Sharia law? Has it survived under Christianity? Doesn't true Christianity reflect certain liberal and conservative values? You harp about the past injustices done to peoples of the past by "Colonialism" and imperialism. Question: Have you given your land back to the Native Americans? Or what repatriation have you made? Will you give your children's education up so that some poor person can get one? Do you drive a gas burning vehicle on public lands? Do you shop in capitalist markets? Do you eat meat? Do you eat vegetables? Do you flip on a light switch when you go to get a drink of water from the public water source or private bottled water company? I would venture to guess that you, like conservatives, are a consumer. Consumption involves the destruction of at least one object or concept. When you try to limit that consumption, you conserve. So are you a conservative now? No? You see...I don't understand you liberals. I know that most of you are good people who's goal(s) in life are to provide good things for the world, your friends and families, and yourselves. I believe that your opinions are not founded on malice and evil intent. We just don't agree on the best way to accomplish the goals. So why must you be so...hateful? Cruel? Controlling? Forceful? Demanding? Insistent? "Sitting at home with my Bible and gun" (as you say) are the only things I have to look forward to. I won't have any money, because what money I have will go to forced health care and/or cap and trade! Please y'all...I need an explanation.
writtenwyrd: Thanks. I wish I knew the answers, too. Sigh.
ss@s: At first, I thought that you were one of those automatic Japanese spammer things that love my blog. As it is, I think that Christianity is going to suffer a lot if the "haters" don't realize the error of their ways.
Randy: Here's the deal, Phil. I referred to those things in the past because I was trying to make the point that I don't know what conservatives want to conserve. If it's the past, then maybe they need to rethink it, because the past wasn't some wonderland of yayness that a lot of them seem to think it is. Certainly the horrors of the past continue today and we do very little about it. That's my point, really.
If I made you think that I was insinuating that libs or Dems don't embrace bad things, I failed as a writer. Nothing in this blog was meant to address the libs and Dems...that's for another post. :) I simply want an explanation as to what it is "conservatives" want to conserve. Barring that, I'd love for a conservative to tell me what being a conservative means in five sentences or less.
I don't have anything but love for the armed forces (the folks who put them in harm's way are another story.) A soldier is neither conservative or liberal when doing his or her job. I'm not sure what the percentage is. I don't think it matters.
Yes, Randy, true Christianity embraces both aspects of liberalism and conservativism. I would argue that the conservative leaders and pundits don't espouse the liberalism that Jesus evinced in the Gospels.
The consumer/conservative argument is interesting. I am a consumer, although I would say that like many liberals, I try very hard to limit my consumption, something which many conservatives (and certainly those not in the government) seem to do. I would go further and say that the majority of people I know who are embracing things like canning, knitting, sewing, gardening, etc. are young liberals.
I agree that my post was not especially kind to conservatives, nor were several of the comments of my readers. But I'm ANGRY, Randy, at conservative leaders and many conservative followers. And your last bit about paying for health care and cap and trade is a huge reason why--you're buying into arguments based not on fact but on the idea that health care should not be for everyone and that we shouldn't post limits on environmental consumption. What, really, would Jesus do when faced with non-insured people and a soiled planet?
Oh. Wow. I am fairly conservative. I wasn't aware that automaticly made me an 'asshole', 'ignorant and ill-informed and responsible for the mess we currently find ourselves in economically' and deserving of a pox. That's pretty shitty and small minded.
I believe that not all librals are wrong and not all conservatives are right. I belive people should be judged on their individual beliefs and not just their party affiliation. There is more to me than my label, just as there is more to you than yours.
I do not agree with the Salvation Army mandating that only American children should be the recipiants of charity. Perhaps the decision for proof of birth was to keep track of whom is reciving gifts so no one can take advantage and receive more that one gift?
Crystal, good for you for asserting yourself. One thing that I've noticed as I've been paying more and more attention to what's going on in the liberal versus conservative dealio is an increased nastiness on the part of liberals. I know that it's due to frustration and anger over how difficult it is to make positive changes in the face of years of sludge from conservative admins, but it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not distancing myself from it; the tone of my post was sarcastic to say the least and definitely not kind. But in the past few days, especially, I've watched liberal friends deliberately bait conservative Christians into making asses of themselves and so-called progressive friends talk about sterilizing people and it's just...craziness.
So. Having said all that, I would love, love, love for you (or any other conservative) to define what it means for you. You're right; we ARE more than our labels, but somehow I want to know more. Does that make any sense?
BTW, I wish the cynic in me could believe that it wasn't about nationality status. I just don't think I can swallow that, though. Sigh.
I've been away from the blogosphere for most of the month, but popped in today and am SO happy I did. I'm with you on this - all of it. I find myself scratching my head constantly. Brilliant post!
No no, it's not a matter of wanting to RETURN to any past time. I'm conservative, and I think that today is far superior to any point in the past. To me, conservatism means having a respect for what we've learned so far, and being careful to change as few things as possible before you see the fallout that comes from those changes.
Want to make a change to health care? Great, let's make those changes carefully. Want to throw it all out and hope that your brand new idea is better than the sum total of human knowledge up to this point? That seems like a bad idea.
I will grant you, that my concept of "conservative" is not the same as everybody elses. We're not all the same. :) Glenn Beck give me the heebie-jeebies just as much as he gives them to you. He's a demagogue, not a conservative.
You sound angry. Your leaps of logic and assumptions based on those leaps are... questionable and hard to follow. It would be helpful if you could define your terms. And then take a breath, calm down and try to explain your points in an orderly manner. Does Glenn Beck hate someone? Don't fall into the same error.
"Why IS the minority allowed to BE so vocal...?" Because you are allowed to be vocal, and I am, and they are too. We can all be vocal. Do you have to "understand" someone else's point of view before they have a right to that point of view? If you do we are all in trouble, because we are all on someone's list of "Things I Don't Understand."
And last of all, Calling names always weakens your argument. And Sarcasm is the weakest form of argument. I'm sure you are a wonderful writer, but passion without discipline is wasted.
By the way, I think you might enjoy Pope Benedict XVI's most recent encyclical, Charity in Truth.
-Amma Always
PS. I can't let this go without saying that over the last 8 years I have heard a number of liberals say things like "I wish (the then current president) were dead!" or "Why doesn't someone just kill him?" I know a number of conservative people - some religious, some athiests, (one of them is me), and have NEVER heard any of them say something like that about the current president. We complain vehemently about his spending and actions, but I have never heard a conservative say something like that.
Seriously, liberal people, help me out here.
Dawn, I'm only assuming that you didn't read all of the comments preceding yours. I AM angry. Having said that, I have to say that as a writer, I'm proud of what I wrote. It's pretty easy to understand: If conservatives are, indeed, trying to conserve a part of the past, what part is it, given that the past has been fairly horrible to minorities and, you know, health? (Also, I don't hate anybody. Being angry and having hate are two different things.)
If the majority of conservatives don't feel as Glenn Beck (to name ONE) does, my question to Kira stands. Why are they allowed--by conservatives--so much power? Why are more conservatives not stepping forward (like Andrew Sullivan, bless his heart) and saying: "These people don't speak for me." Of course everyone has their right to an opinion and a point of view. However, if people people like Beck and Limbaugh espouse opinions that aren't cogent with the rest of the conservative mindset, I would think more conservatives would speak up.
Thank you for your opinion on sarcasm. Whoopsie. There's more of it. (Perhaps you need to go back and read the second paragraph of your comment. Just saying... :D)
Parts of the latest encyclical are interesting--a world economy based on morality? Lovely. And it would be nice if the Church would do as its leader tells it to, particularly regarding his beliefs about law and homosexuals.
http://gawker.com/5407568/christian-conservatives-praying-for-god-to-kill-obama And then there are the folks videotaped at the rallies with their "watering the tree of liberty" signs. It's possible, Dawn, that you live in a place where people don't make jokes about lynching the president on Facebook while bearing a Biblical verse on their "favorite quotes" area. I don't. And I've heard a lot from conservatives about liberals wanting Bush dead, which strikes me as inane. In eight long and grueling years, I heard a lot about impeachment but nothing about death to the president coming from any of the myriad of liberals I know. I wonder, what about this post in particular made you bring this up?
Wow, I read about 90% of the comments to your post and it is scary. I would definitely lump myself into the conservative side of politics, yet I...
*believe in a woman's right to choose to kill her unborn child because it is her body (but truthful it is killing regardless)
* I am living a greener life style. We recycle, reuse, and reduce our consumption for the benefits of both our planet and our grandchildren. We currently can use one roll of paper towels for an entire month, and throw away about 2 bags of trash a week. This is way down from the past. There are many other things we do that I did not list here.
* I am not a Christian.
* My next vehicle will be at least a hybrid of some sort.
* I involve my children in nature as much as possible.
*I support small businesses and mom based shops.
*I try to buy as much organic and chemical free foods and products as I can.
*My family believes in hunting to gain meat for our family and to help keep the deer, elk, etc. population in check. We harvest the oldest, hurt, or otherwise overpopulated animals in a specific area. We eat as much of the meat as possible and share the rest with friends and family.
* I do not have any desire to be over taxed or give my money to pay for another's health care, daily living expenses, etc.
I want people to get off their asses and work. If they truly cannot work due to illness or age, then of course I will be more than happy to help out.
I just don't want my hard earned money going to pay for a lazy ass to sit at home with 6 kids and one on the way watching TV and going to the local clinic for healthcare because it's easier than getting an F***ing job.
My brother is a police officer that deals with the homeless on a daily basis. He has asked several of the people why they do not get a job and the answers are usually very similar.
One woman actually said that she keeps herself fat because she can get more sympathy as a pregnant homeless lady. She said she earns enough money to live in a 4 star hotel every night with no real bills to speak of. She actually didn't understand why someone would work if they could get money from others.
This is much more the norm than you would think. These are the people our hard earned money will go to help out.
My son has a rare skin disorder and with the new healthcare system there is a very large possibility that we will not get to see the doctors he needs to go to because the cost will be too high and he may not be seen as severe enough to receive services.
Another scary thought… to think of my grandmother needing some sort of transplant or surgery (that she can pay for) and it going to someone younger that the government will pay for simply due to my grandmother’s age and the government’s decision that she is the least worthy of the two candidates.
Doesn’t it seem a bit shady that the President himself does not have to abide by the same healthcare system that he is proposing?
to be continued in next comment...
continued from previous comment...
What is a conservative trying to “conserve”? The Constitution of the United States (which is not a living document)
I believe I have the right to have my freedom ensured. If that means that we have to help in another country until that country is trustworthy enough to find for themselves then I’m for it.
I believe that I deserve to have more of my money in my pocket and not taxed and given away. I worked hard for my money and should not be required to give it away.
I believe that people should get taxed a flat percentage or we should do away with income taxing all together and go with a consumption tax. Just because someone earns less than me does not mean that they should get to keep more of their money than I do. A consumption tax would tax people equally based on their spending.
I believe small business drives our economy and it is important to support them in any way I can.
I believe if people had more money in their pockets they would spend more money therefore boosting the economy.
I do believe that past had some problems. I also believe some of these problems have been remedied… woman and people of color are voting, slavery has been abolished, etc. I cannot be held accountable for the problems of the past. I can only work towards a brighter future for my children.
What I did not hear in your post was what you hold of value. What do you believe in that is so much more humane and better than the views I have stated in this response? I have found that many people that claim to be liberal truly have conservative values, but do not even realize it do to the negative stereo type the conservatives receive.
Sorry One Pink Fish I think your comments regarding the homeless are disingenuous. I would be interested in seeing some data to back up your claims. You brother's opinion just doesn't do it for me.
A person is a person because of other people. You cannot exist on an island, and yet you want to live as if you do, caring nothing for your fellow humans. It can't work, spiritually or practically.
Why are the happiest people in Denmark where they pay 15% income tax and the difference between rich and poor is minimal? Everyone has healthcare and daycare provided by the government. People get to do the work they love and have passion for, instead of the one that brings home the biggest pile of cash.
OPF: Thanks for commenting. I understand that the anger seen in some of the comments must have been off-putting. (I'm not making excuses for the anger, nor trying to take anything away from it. The anger is real, I'm afraid.)
Up until the part about taking care of another person's health care, I was right there with you. It has always been ironic to me that the folks (these days)who seem to be embracing true conservative values (such as living off of the land, practicing self-sufficiency, etc.)are young liberals.
But after this, we have a parting of ways. The problem with saying that you would help somebody if they were sick or couldn't work is that I'm not sure how we're supposed to qualify what "sick" or "unable" means. With respect, I have a hard time believing that the woman who is fat and homeless ISN'T sick. That isn't a sane view of the world. I doubt, especially in this economy, that even if there are some homeless people or folks on government assistance that are taking advantage of the system, that those people outnumber the people who are legitimately in need. I live in a small town and volunteer with an organization that serves elderly folks who can't support themselves. The number of them and the way some of them live is sobering.
This is a delicate thing and I don't want to get all up in your business, but what makes you think that your son would receive less services under a new health system? I'm truly curious as to what information you've received to make you believe this, as it seems the opposite of what I've read about what sort of care those with chronic conditions would receive.
With respect (again, this is delicate), the "death panel"--I'm assuming this is what you're talking about--idea was one of ONE suggestions as to how to deal with the issue of transplants. And it's not in the health insurance reform bill--any of them. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/10/palin-death-panel-remark-sets-truth-o-meter-fire/ This does bring up the point, really, that the "first come, first serve" method we sort of use now isn't really any more fair than any of the others. Should a person who drank their liver into cirrhosis deserve a liver more than a teenager with his whole life ahead of him? These are moral, ethical issues that aren't based on politics...they are issues that plague us as our medical technology moves forward even as our bodies continue to fail.
It WOULD seem shady. If he didn't have to abide by it. But since the president likes his health insurance and he wants to continue using it, he would be abiding by it. I'm not sure what you mean when you say he wouldn't.
Continuing on...
I disagree that the Constitution isn't a living document. It has been amended over and over throughout its history. Further, the men who drafted it knew that it would be adapted as time went on in accordance to the needs of citizens. Not changed, not made a document of less freedoms (although I suppose we could talk about prohibition here...or the folks who want to make gay marriage a Constitutional impossibility)--but as John Marshall said, one that could "adapt to the various crises of human affairs." As a liberal, I want the Constitution upheld, too. For everybody. All the time.
I agree with you on the issue of freedom--if the people CHOOSE to be free. (I don't believe in imposing democracy on folks who don't want it. Which makes me a crazy libertarian, I think.)
I don't believe, however, that you can expect to have your freedoms protected without having to be taxed. (That's what a large chunk of our taxes go to...defense and paying the benefits of veterans.) Then there's social security and medicare. If you want to have a military, as well as roads, schools, and emergency assistance should, heaven forbid, you need it, you're going to have to pay taxes.
I'm not an economist and I'm just now starting to investigate the concept of fair and consumption taxes. It seems to me that these taxes would A: leave our military high and dry and B: leave only the very rich and very poor without the majority of the tax burden. I also wonder how high the consumption tax would have to be to equal what the government gets in revenue now. Further, I don't like the idea of being taxed for health care, insurance, etc. If we're going to have a consumption or fair tax, it seems logical to have national health care to remove those burdens.
I also agree with supporting small businesses. So does the president. http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/06/smallbusiness/obama_small_business_proposals/index.htm
I agree that you can't be held accountable for the past. But we can't ever forget that it happened and we must be careful not to repeat past mistakes.
To answer your question, this is what being a liberal means to me: A liberal seeks to ensure that all people, regardless or race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, or financial position, have access to the same opportunities afforded under law and that if those opportunities are missing, it is the government's duty to ensure that they are put in place. A liberal believes that it is a person's responsibility in a society to care for his or her fellow man, while acknowledging that the interests of the greater good must be served. A liberal chooses not to interfere with the moral dictates of an individual, unless those dictates harm other individuals.
Conservative and liberals DO share lots of common values. I've come to believe since I wrote this post that we, the American people, are utterly mislead by the media and many politicians, who seek to serve not the interests of the people, but those of corporations and foreign investors. (One reason why I'm all over the Coffee Party.)
Thanks for your comment. I think a civil discourse on these issues is best (though I reserve the right to get pissed off now and then. :))
Thanks for your response. I love reading others' points of view. I do not think we as a people will ever fully agree on things, but it is nice to hear from others who's view points at face value seem so different, yet there can be so many common grounds.
I think without these discussions we would stay stagnant and not grow as a society. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there for others to ponder. You always have a way of making me think.
Happy Sunday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
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